Gotta love this, and of course Dawkins’ honesty about where the materialistic worldview naturally leads. And if rape is not wrong, but just a personal preference, then why is anything else wrong?
From here.
It gets worse. In a radio interview with Justin Brierley, after his debate with John Lennox in London a few years ago, the following exchange took place between Dawkins and Brierley (starting at 4:57):
Brierley: “But if we had evolved into a society in which rape was considered fine, would that mean that rape is fine?”
Dawkins responded, “I don’t want to answer that question…it’s enough for me to say that we live in a society where it’s not considered fine. We live in a society where selfishness, where failure to pay your debts, failure to reciprocate favors is regarded askance. Ah, that is the society in which we live. I’m very glad…that’s a value judgment, I’m very glad that I live in such a society.”
Brierley: “It is …. But when you make a value judgment don’t you immediately step yourself outside of this evolutionary process and say … the reason this is good is because it’s good, and you don’t have any way to stand on that statement.”
Dawkins: “But my value judgment itself could come from my evolutionary past.”
Brierley: “So, therefore it’s just as random as any product of evolution.”
Dawkins: “Well, you could say that…uh, but it doesn’t in any case…nothing about it makes it more probable that there is anything supernatural.”
Brierley: “OK, but ultimately, your belief that rape is wrong is as arbitrary as the fact that we’ve evolved five fingers rather than six.”
Dawkins: “You could say that, yes.”
(Emphasis from source.)
A big flaw in the atheist armour, objective moral values and dutes have no basis in the atheist world view.
Watch how they try to claim God is barbaric, because of old testament texts, but in doing so they use objective moral values, like harming children is wrong, when they have no basis for such values!
Exactly, but who said atheism makes sense?
Atheists judge the God of the Old Testament based on modern morals. Even Christians have difficulty understanding the wrath of God, but they believe that God can do no wrong so he is allowed to perform acts which we otherwise find questionable.
Really? “Modern morals”? Care to explain where those come from AND why we should care anyway?
I don’t have to convince you to care. You already have a sense of right and wrong. Morality isn’t determined by debate.
I’d be happy to tell you what I think is right and wrong. Would you really take moral advise from me?
Yes, we do all have some sense of right and wrong. But which right is right, and which right is wrong?
As Ravi Zacharias (www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHRP0I2SrVs) has pointed out, in some cultures they love their enemies, and in other cultures they eat their enemies.
I think that you need to look at moral ontology because this is really where the problem for the atheist lies. Atheism does not, and I believe cannot, provide an ontological foundation for morality. Bags of chemicals may feel rights and wrongs, but they do not give us a moral law.
If you want to follow this further, you could also look at the William Lane Craig-Sam Harris debate and Craig’s podcast where he analyses Harris’ position (contra Dawkins btw) re foundations for morality.
What happens to the crime rate in a society where there are people who believe that right and wrong comes from God?
The United States, Brazil, and Mexico are often listed as the countries with the largest Christian populations. How doe their crime rates compare with countries with small Christian populations?
First paragraph: This question is far too vague. Are you meaning an Islamic society? A theocracy? Hitler’s Germany?
Second paragraph: You seem to be want to correlate Christianity with crime in a culture. But the 3 countries you listed are hardly what I would consider bastions of Christianity.
If a society was truly Christian, there would be no crime at all, but that is not going to happen this side of heaven because we are all sinners, and even the best Christians still sin.
It may surprise you, but Christianity is not an ethical system — it is a relationship between sinners and God.
I just realized that the interview went like this:
Brierley: “OK, but ultimately, your belief that rape is wrong is as arbitrary as the fact that we’ve evolved five fingers rather than six.”
Dawkins: “You could say that, yes.”
Dawkins did not say that rape was no worse that having six fingers. He was saying that the same processes that produce six fingers produces our view of rape (ie. natural processes)
Dawikins also said, “…it’s enough for me to say that we live in a society where it’s [rape] not considered fine. … I’m very glad that I live in such a society.”
It may be a fine distinction, but I think it is important to point out that this line of reasoning does not prove that Dawkins is wrong, It is merely attempting to make it seem that Dawkins is okay with rape.
Dawkins comes off as the reasonable one. Brierley is merely appealing to our distaste for rape.
“Dawkins did not say that rape was no worse that having six fingers. He was saying that the same processes that produce six fingers produces our view of rape (ie. natural processes)”
Exactly. Rape is not objectively morally right or wrong in his view.
So can I presume from your comments that you also cannot state emphatically that rape is objectively wrong?
I believe rape is wrong. You believe rape is wrong. Our country has laws against rape. Rapists are the lowest humans in our society. What more do you want?
You and I can believe whatever we want about the rightness and wrongness of rape. My question to you is: how do you justify the rightness and wrongness? You cannot just assert that A is right and B is wrong can you?
Specifically, I am asking you for the bedrock basic foundational grounding for your moral values, and how you derive them from atheism.
Fortunately, whether or not Christians approve, rape is not only illegal in the U.S. it is socially unacceptable. It seems that you want to take that away.
I assume you believe morality comes from God. Christians routinely assert that A is right and B is wrong. How do I know if they are correct?